You Can Always Tell When I’ve Been Pugging A Lot

The tank left, as many tanks do, after Zul’Garub’s raptor boss. A vote-to-kick popped up to kick our warrior. “Shitty fucking DPS” was the reason.

I glanced at Skada. The warrior was doing a bit above 8k. Not amazing, but stuff was dying fast enough and he wasn’t doing anything stupid. Besides, the other two dps were doing 9k and 11k respectively. If the warrior ranked as “shitty fucking“, then they ranked as just “shitty“.

Our three wipes so far has been due to:

Wipe 1: Tank failing on boulders
Wipe 2: Tank pulling more than he could hold aggro on
Wipe 3: Dps who initiated the vote-to-kick being outside the ring when raptor boss was pulled.

The warrior hadn’t caused any problems yet.

Since there were only 4 of us in the group, the final decision as to whether to kick the warrior or not was left to me.

Times I’ll Use Vote-to-Kick

I rarely kick players for being bad. Mainly because I know I struggle to reach 6k dps myself when playing ret. If I pop all my cooldowns, I might be able to reach 7k for a fraction of a second. If I’m lucky. So unless our weakest link is getting in the way of killing a boss (Grim Batol comes to mind), I don’t care about dps much.

Not actual DPS meters

However, when someone’s pulling 4k while the rest of the group, including the tank, is sitting at 14k, I’ll usually agree if a vote-to-kick is initiated.

I don’t know where the DPS benchmarks should be for heroics, but I do think that if someone’s doing under 5-6k, they’re not quite ready for the leap yet and shouldn’t queuing for them. There is a difference between normal 85s and heroics for a reason. But while it can justify a kick, I don’t think it justifies abuse.

I hate when players abuse each other. I know it’s not a big deal to most of the guys I play with, but if I were abused in a pug, and I wasn’t so confident about my healing ability, I’d be really shaken. (I have encountered, um, strange reactions in pugs, but they always started before the first pull and were so very weird that I suspect those players were stoned. Very stoned.) I’d rather see someone removed than witness verbal abuse. When the target of the abuse is sub-performing, especially if they haven’t gemmed or enchanted their gear, there’s not a whole lot I can do to defend them besides kick them and spare them misery.

Initiating vote-to-kicks, though, is something I will do if a player is being a douchebag and annoying me. I don’t mind carrying players, but I have no tolerance for annoying behaviour. Besides, if a person has no regard for the feelings of others, then I really have no regard for their feelings.

An Anatomy of Douchebaggery

The word “elitism” is tossed around a lot. But in my experience, the players who are the biggest douchebags in pugs aren’t particularly good players themselves. It almost feels like they’re people who’ve been picked on in the past for being bad and jump at the opportunity when they’re in a position to do it to others.

Or they’re people who don’t really understand the game or meters, and are looking to attack before they get attacked. (I actually met a healer who spammed healing meters from 5 mans. Yes, you are going to be on top when you’re the only healer. And a high hps just meant people were taking a lot of damage. No damage, no high hps.)

And wannabes. The wannabes. Players from upper-but-not-top guilds who just don’t have the skill, the focus or the discipline to be excellent. Or players from more casual guilds who assume they’re amazing because they’ve always topped the meters in their raids. These guys are quite possibly the worst culprits in heroics. They play badly, are mouthy and are quick to pry on anyone else.

Penny Arcade’s Internet Fuckwad Theory is often referred to explain douchebag behaviour. Which works if you have a Lord of the Flies view of people. But I have trouble believing the person spewing out bullshit and feeling real’ proud of himself for being such a badass is a “normal person”. Oh, maybe he acts like a normal person when there are consequences to his actions, but, really, if someone over the age of 12 gets pleasure from shitting on others or saying “naughty words”, I quite suspect there being something wrong with them to begin with.

Now, I understand anger and raging. I have quite the temper myself, although I’m more likely to get angry about time-wasting or arrogance than about wipes and mistakes. I’m also a lot more likely to get sarcastic and accusatory than swear or name call. But I understand tempers getting heated. Games are like that. You get involved in them, you use them as a safe outlet for stress and, well, I suspect (but have no proof) that the chemical effect games have on the brain trigger short term aggression or crankiness anyway. I’ll never hold outbursts in raids, pvp or even nasty heroics against people.

But gratuitous abuse? Or “OMG LOOK AT ME I SAID A NAUGHTY WORD IM SUCH A BADASS LOLOLOL!!!111one”? Give me a break.

No it doesn’t offend me. It doesn’t hurt my feelings. It does, however, hurt my eye rolling muscles.

Hindsight Wears Rose-Coloured Glasses

I don’t want comments blaming LFD and saying “things were so much better before LFD“.

Sometimes I wonder if the LFD haters ever tried to pug 5 mans before the system got put in. I pugged alone in Vanilla and in pre-LFD BC. I pugged alone a lot.

Back then, pugging a 5 man alone was an all day event. If your instance wasn’t overly popular at that moment, finding a full group took a few hours. By the time you had your group together, someone would have to leave. Before max level, you didn’t always have the luxury of a tank-healer-3dps so you made do with what you had. You’d wipe a lot. People would often have to leave halfway through and you’d spend up to an hour waiting for a replacement while trying to 4 man the instance. I don’t think I ever finished an instance with the same 4 people I started it with.

Where people nicer and did they talk more?

I vaguely remember that they were and that they did. But when you’re stuck with these people for hours and when replacing them was a disgusting task, you either had to be patient or you didn’t pug.

So I suspect the shitty behaviour in pugs is due more to pugging being available to those who wouldn’t have lasted 5 minutes in the old system. Plus, with the all the incentives from instances nowadays, more players in general are pugging.

And really, I’d rather put up with the occasional douchebag than go back to struggling for hours every time I wanted to do an instance.

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37 Comments on “You Can Always Tell When I’ve Been Pugging A Lot”

  1. I immediately /ignore the annoying verbose types. Unless they’re abusive, where I then vote to kick them or leave the group myself. Great post! I shared it on tumblr, so you might or might not get more traffic. I need more warcraft tumblr people. Since my wordpress is sad and dejected.

    • Guillaume Says:

      The link to your Tumblr seems broken: would love to look at it.

      I also linked this post to my posting my comment below. Feel free to look at it and suggest me content.

    • Ophelie Says:

      Thank you!

      I haven’t ever /ignored anyone. Whenever I think of it, it’s always too late and I’m already outside the instance. I doubt I’ve been put in a group with the same people very often anyway. I just wish /ignore worked for a player’s Battlenet account and not just for that one character.

  2. Guillaume Says:

    Nice post and reminding me of my own experience. The bullying you can get from pugging in the LFD system can really be frustrating: I remember being told to “go delete” by one of those wannabes roxxors when playing Grim Batol for the first time after a 2-week break. Explanations on boss strats would have been more useful but somehow these douchebags just expect everyone to know everything just because they pretend to do so.

    Other behaviors that get on my nerve:
    – players quitting group without a word
    – players quitting after first wipe
    – players never even bothering to answer when tank (often myself due to tanks’ scarcity) asks the over-complex philosophical question: “ready?”
    – same guys complaining tank pulled too fast (when tank actually waited a good 30″ for never-coming answer)

    I’m adding to the list but actually the system is great. Though I’m a bit frustrated by the bias towards playing tank (I love to heal but the system always want me to tank), I’d probably would have stopped WoW without it. I had to cut down on my playing time because of too much work and yes, pugging was just too complex to do before. Plus it works with raid which are hard for me to do with my guildies as I couldn’t keep up to their rythm.

    • Ophelie Says:

      If you want to heal and queue up as a healer, the wait times aren’t bad. It’s not instant like a tank, but lately it’s been under 10 minutes.

      I’m not a fan of those who randomly leave or give up on the first wipe either. But at least those are easily replaced. Once you’re already in an instance, waiting for a new tank or a new dps (I’m always the healer when I queue alone, so I’ve never had to wait for a healer!), really isn’t that bad. I even had it once that the whole group left (they were terribad anyway), and a minute later, I had a shiny new group which tore the through instance way faster than the original group would have. I think again- those who leave at the first sign of difficulty are those who aren’t capable of compensating for others’ mishaps.

  3. Vidyala Says:

    I’ll admit, I have recently been guilty of losing my temper in a pug. More in the “sarcastic comments” department than verbal/vulgar abuse I suppose, but I’m not proud of it anyway. 😦 I too used to pug quite a bit before there was a ‘system’ in place to do so. I don’t blame the LFD system for all the world’s ills – in fact I still like the system – but it has definitely exposed me to a greater subset of jerks than I’d ever met when I was just seeking five-mans on my own server.

    LFD was introduced just shortly after I transferred to my current server, and one of the major impacts of that (in my opinion, and for me personally) was that I hardly met anyone on my own server. I love the change they have recently made to give preference to same-server players in LFD. This way I can actually meet people and maybe populate my friend’s list a little. The fact that they did it proves they really are listening to what the community was saying, which is awesome. Will LFD still have jerks sometimes? Will I be the jerk? I hope I will be, less, and for any others – that’s what ignore is for. I think the benefits of LFD definitely still outweigh the drawbacks!

    • Ophelie Says:

      I’m sure we all have our moments where we’re less than perfect! We’re all human!

      And I think there is a difference between losing one’s temper when the going gets tough (which happens to the best of us) and deliberately abusing others with no real justification. It’s the “you fucking faggot you fucking suck get the fuck out the fucking instance” that gets to me, not so much the occasional slips! The majority of groups I get in pugs are lovely, actually, it’s just that the douchebags makes better stories.

      I do miss getting to know people from my server too. I’m not very social, but I do really like my server and I don’t feel like the occasional BH pug is enough to really experience it. But at the same time, getting to do dungeons easily isn’t too bad of a tradeoff.

  4. “But in my experience, the players who are the biggest douchebags in pugs aren’t particularly good players themselves.” Sing it, sister!

    As for DPS benchmarks, 5-6k is acceptable for regular heroics, with 4k being my usual kick threshold. If someone’s pulling under 9k in a Rise of the Zandalari heroic, you’re going to have issues.

    • Ophelie Says:

      That sounds about right. I wish there was a way to use actual dps output instead of ilvl as a way to queue for heroics. I can’t see how that would be possible to do, but it would be really helpful and spare players on both ends a lot of frustration.

  5. Kurn Says:

    I had a situation in a heroic Lost City run the other day. I was on my paladin and the tank was a very good druid tank who was pretty well geared and held everything nicely. He was great and made my job so much easier.

    But after the first boss, he launched into a tirade at the ret paladin who did about 7k DPS and told him that he was just horrible and that he should leave. He used much stronger language than that, though. The ret pally left of his own accord.

    We then got a DK to replace the paladin and moved on. Second boss, fine. It was on the way to the third boss that the tank decided to skip that first group of trash.

    “skipping trash” he said. I’d only done that once, so I followed dutifully.

    The DK was like “never skipped before” and promptly pulled two groups somehow.

    Insert another fit of rage from the druid when we wiped.

    So I initiated the vote kick for the druid.

    “Jackass” was my reason. The kick passed in less than two seconds.

    We got a DK tank who wasn’t as good of a tank as the druid, but he was nicer and very polite.

    The point, I guess, is that no one deserves that kind of vitriol in a game. I’ve been guilty of being less-than-nice. I recently called someone an idiot while pugging, but after the fourth time of getting beat on by 3 of the 4 mobs in a group just after using ONE Holy Shock on the tank, I was at my wits’ end. The “tank” in question was a DK who wasn’t spreading diseases or using Death and Decay and clearly didn’t have the foggiest idea of HOW to do his job.

    And the “idiot” comment came in after I’d said “Hey, (tank name), do you think you could use Death and Decay, please?”

    “Please use Death and Decay to help you with aggro.”

    “Diseases and Death and Decay will prevent the mobs from running at me every time I cast a heal.”

    I always try to be nice and/or civil, and always start out that way. The druid tank I had didn’t even start like that. It was just torrents of vitriol. And that was not cool for me.

    • Ophelie Says:


      I know anyone will have their moments of humanity in pugs, but there’s a world of difference between genuine frustration and stepping on others for no other reason the mere pleasure of being a jerk. And really, 7k? Really? So what if the instance takes 5 extra minutes!

      I haven’t had much trouble with kicking jackasses either so I suspect that the silent minority doesn’t appreciate them any more than we do. If only more people would initiate votes to kick the jerks.

  6. ironyca Says:

    “I don’t want comments blaming LFD and saying “things were so much better before LFD“.” – There goes my comment.
    But then again, I can’t mirror your pre-LFD memories, I’ve pugged since Vanilla, so being a “LFD-hater” as you put it, I do remember a time before the system was implemented. (You say “pre-LFD BC”, but LFD wasn’t introduced until halfway through WotLK, so BC was entirely pre-LFD, or maybe I misunderstood what you meant?).

    I do however agree with your assessment that more people are pugging now and this could be an explanation for the increase of negative behaviors. I also like your rule of thumb of when you find kicking to be deserved.
    I wonder if there’s a point to this, if some of the kick mania could be avoided if more people actually considered what behaviors they themselves would consider kick-worthy, as sometimes it can look like some people just initiate kicks at a whim.

    ps: I really don’t appreciate the “hater” postfix, it’s a really loaded word making it sound like being critical of LFD is akin to just hating.

    • Ophelie Says:

      I use strong terminology, that’s just my style. I use the words “hate”, “love”, “always”, “never” quite a bit. It just reflects how I view the world. I’m totally fine with people specifying “well, I wouldn’t say I’m a HATER, but I do have my reservations about the LFD system.”

      You’re right with the LFD timeline. I do remember something being put into place mid-BC. I can’t remember when original LFG tool came out, whether that was in Vanilla or BC. I also became tight with a guild mid-BC and stopped pugging, so that might be what I remember! Good call.

      As for the new system vs the old system, the old system was such a tedious PITA that I strongly suspect that anyone who prefers it just doesn’t remember how god-awful pugging was before. But the current system is clearly far from perfect and the amount of abuse that takes place in it is good indicator of its weaknesses.

  7. Elladrion Says:

    As one of the 3rd types of douchebags you describe (big fish in a little pond guild), I figure I have pretty sound reasoning when I berate bad players. No, I’m serious, hear me out. It’s not me being a dick for the enjoyment of being a dick. It’s becuase of how easy it is to merely be competant and, far more importantly, how completely and offensivly selfish it is to me that you would waste 4 (or 9 or 24) other people’s time becuase you can’t be bothered to put in the slightest effort.

    I’m a fairly good player, but not a great player and I don’t claim to be. I joined a big time raiding guild in wrath and I went from top performer to always near the bottom. But I’m competant. I know my class, I read up on the fights, I perform adequately. I carry my weight, in short.

    In many LFD pugs, that somehow elevates me to being “pro”, although I have played with actual “pro” players and I most deffinately don’t constitute the term. I am very competant however, and being competant is VERY easy with just a little out of game research and a little time invested in-game to put that research into practice. It’s amazing what a differance a 30 minute google search of your class/spec will do for you, but SO many people refuse to even to that. It takes 5 days of /played to hit 85, you can spend 30 minutes searching (class) (spec) (patch number).

    I never berate people if they’re undergeared, but I absolutely can’t stand well geared players underperforming. Especially wrongly geared players. The hunters using strength rings, the DKs wearing intellect plate etc. These players have obviously not done the 5 minutes it would take to actually learn what their class does, and CERTAINLY never stood at a target dummy with recount to theorycraft their own numbers. But they will queue up with 4 other people and let them carry their weight. I consider that the more offensive than any name-calling you could possibly type to a person, you are WASTING the time of 4 people becuase you can’t be bothered to give a litle effort.

    Undergeared is one thing, thats perfectly acceptable (everyone has to start gearing somewhere) but I REFUSE to accept underperfomring, becuase it’s SO EASY to do a decent job if you just try. Doing a great job? thats hard, and I don’t expect that, but if we’re wiping becuase you don’t know your class, don’t know the fight, and won’t follow the explanation of the fight (for %^*&’s sake, kill the adds!) then I WILL call you out and berate you, and you deserve it.

    • Ophelie Says:

      I do agree that wasting other people’s time because you’re lazy or careless, is also a douchebag thing to do. But at the same time, I don’t think that two wrongs make a right and there are more effective ways to talk to people than swear at them or berate them. You wouldn’t talk to someone like that to their face, so why do it in a game?

      I always imagine that the somewhat slow and challenged players are older, like in their 60s, and not as agile with the internet as the rest of us. Or that they have a real disability, like some of the players who post on the forums to share their stories. You can’t know what’s going on on the other side of the computer screen. I agree that these players shouldn’t be in heroics – that’s what regulars are for- but I wouldn’t want someone to talk to my dad the way that many people talk to underperforming players in pugs. Politeness should always be the first resort. If that fails, then, yes, a way to better attract their attention might be warranted.

      There’s also the relative side of underperforming. I definitely understand tempers getting heated after wipes due to repeated mistakes/carelessness/not meeting dps benchmarks. The behaviours I had in mind when I wrote the post, though, were just random freaking out on players. Mostly DPS that wasn’t up to par, but not bad enough to cause wipes (so what if the instance takes an extra 3 minutes?).

  8. Jen Says:

    I started playing in TBC and oh God I remember the pugging. I was a class that couldn’t CC and didn’t have amazing DPS (fury warrior), so finding a group was a lot like pulling teeth. I was very happy when LFD was implemented, and I’m still how now, even though I play a healer.

    (Plus something no one else seems to mention: sometimes I DON’T want to chit chat with people from my server before getting a group. I just want to go in, heal some shit and get out.)

    When it comes to kicking, 2 people get me raging: inconsiderate assholes and ninjas. I don’t care if someone has bad DPS; as long as he/she is polite, no vote kick. But when someone acts like they’re the leetest player in all WoW and we scrubs should bow before them… yeah, no. I love kicking those tanks who feel it’s their God given right to abuse anyone… I’m sure it’s a new experience to them to find themselves suddenly back in SW. As for ninjas, they get my blood boiling especially in low level instances. I always try to explain what need/greed means, but when they still don’t get it… I’m sorry, half of them are probably 8 year old kids, but they should be supervised by someone else and not me.

    One of the most satisfying dungeons I’ve ran recently was a ZG where the ret paladin insisted we let him tank, snarked a lot (we all sucked apparently) and then tried to blame me when he died in a puddle of shit. That vote kick was so fast I didn’t even have a chance to push yes 😀

    • Ophelie Says:

      A…ret…paladin…wanted to tank? I hope he had least had a tanking spec and some gear! The troll instances are rough on tanks and I’ve seen excellent tanks struggle in there!

      Ninjas get on my nerves too. I’ll let it pass when its a few pieces that no one wants anyway, but when the person is clearly abusing the system, I’ll say something and will eventually kick. Luckily, it hasn’t happened to me since Wrath. I’ve met greedy players, but none of them were taking it too far.

      I hear you on not always wanting to talk in my pugs too. If conversation happens, great, but I really don’t run heroics to talk about the weather. If I’m feeling perticularly social, I’ll talk with my guildies, not strangers who are supposed to be busy killing things in my instance!

  9. Oestrus Says:

    I don’t usually initiate vote to kicks, because I always seem to get some error message that prevents me from doing so. Usually, I get the message stating that we’re in combat and so we can’t do that or I’ll get the one that says we haven’t been out of combat long enough to do that. So, I just don’t even bother most of the time, because it doesn’t work when I do attempt to make it happen.

    Were I to initiate the vote to kick someone, it usually has nothing to do with numbers. I don’t run DPS or healing meters, so that’s not something I concern myself with. The qualities that I will judge someone on are attitude, performance or appearance. If my tank is wearing intellect trinkets – you’re out. If the warlock keeps face pulling packs of mobs and not following along with the rest of class, without stating they have never been here before or that they don’t know the ropes – bye. If the enhancement shaman likes to drop the “N” word and the “F” bomb at every opportunity – peace out. Those are things that will get you kicked in my groups.

    I think the game has descended to a point where numbers are being used to single people out and it’s been that way for a long time. People with this gear score or iLevel feel they can look down on people with that gear score or iLevel. Players who do this DPS or this HPS feel they can say/do whatever they want, because they’re too valuable otherwise. Numbers don’t justify bad behavior and I don’t think they ever will, but people would like to believe that is the case and carry on as if it was.

    I’ve said this before and you touched it on here, too – I still think a lot of the issues that come from Heroics stem from people who are in way too much of a hurry. I think interactions would go much more smoothly and maybe even performance would improve, if people didn’t have to worry about others in the group who were focused on the clock and wondering why they weren’t done already. It’s like performance anxiety of a different kind.

    • Ophelie Says:

      I really agree on the hurry part. I’m as busy as the next person, but, and maybe this comes from having been accustomed to all-day instances in Vanilla, when I pug, I brace myself for the worst. If I have less than an hour to play, then I don’t run heroics. That’s all there is to it.

      It doesn’t mean that I’ll be overjoyed to wipe for hours. If there’s a problem that can only be fixed by kicking, then I’ll kick. If there’s a problem that can’t be fixed, I’ll leave. But, I play the game to PLAY THE GAME, not to have valor points handed to me.

  10. Ngita Says:

    Erudax in Grim batol, If the 3 dps are not doing their slows perfectly 21k combined is normally the mark needed to stop the boss healing. You get adds at the level, but at least they stop the boss from being healed.

    So I generally regard 7k as what blizzard designed Heroics around. Note I wont Auto boot if your doing less, but if we are wiping because of lack of dps your where i am going to look. On the other hand if a player is down at 2-3k hh

    But for example if you have healed lost city up to the last boss, no wipes, no deaths your in 33x pve gear, correctly enchanted and gemmed and you keep wiping to going oom, is it healer problem or a dps problem? If the dps are doing 18k combined? It
    a a dps problem. But odds are you will be the one kicked.

    LFD averaged tanks/heals and queue times across servers it did not reduce them.

    LFG was much much better at forming groups, groups to do raids, groups to do newbie quests like ring of blood, you did not even have to been on the character that you wanted to group om. LFD is arguably better at forming groups for 5 man instances but considering the dps queue went to 50-58 mins for Zx this weekend, not really. I spent a hour and 15 mins last saturday finding 20 people so we could a hour and 30 clearing uldaar 25. lfg? I could spend all weekend bouncing from group to group, never more then 5 mins to find something.

    Generally if I am so frustrated I am becoming angry its a good indication I should just drop group.

    The dk tank whereing 8 pvp blues and some green tanking gear who is just running into every single pull in H deadmines, no marks, no cc who on the second time he broke the cc on the mob trying to beat on me as the healer. I politely enquired did he dislike cc, his reply I don’t like cc in small spaces, he has allready admitted the only time he had been their before was normal deadmines, so I was running him through tank strats for bosses.

    Hour and 10 mins to run H deadmines, 5-6 wipes almost all on trash and over a stack of food on a 355 geared shaman in 3 pce teir. Oh well at least I got a captured firefly from the exotic bag.

    • Ophelie Says:

      Erudax was exactly the boss I had in mind when I used Grim Batol as the exceptional instance where there’s less leeway for low dps. There are a few other fights with dps minimums, but Erudax is the only boss where I’ve actually struggled for no other reason than dps.

      I’ll definitely kick if we are wiping – or I’m running out of mana – because of low dps. Like I wrote in the post, I’ll also agree to (but probably won’t initiate) a kick if someone is well below everyone else.

      Healer abuse or kicking the healer because the dps is too low isn’t justified either, of course. Or giving the tank a hard time because the dps don’t know how to kill groups of mobs for that matter. It’s just that I’ve never experienced healer abuse (with the exception of some really bizzarre incidents that were more funny than anything else) and I’ve never been kicked from a heroic (knock on wood) so I didn’t write about it.

      You make a good point about raid and quest pugging. I miss that part of the old system. While I found that no one ever used the quest option, the raid option was excellent and I don’t know why they removed it.

      1 hour and 10 minutes for heroic deadmines is actually excellent time. That’s about how long it takes with a flawless run. I have no idea how you managed that if the group was bad! (And 5-6 wipes isn’t that big of a deal in deadmines. I wipe more than that in there on guild runs!)

  11. Arybeth Says:

    I’ve run out of ghosts on a Mandokir fight twice (without anyone dying to stupid stuff) because of one really low DPS. It was a lock. She/he was a very nice and well behaved person; his entire group left after killing Venoxis, probably because they didn’t have the nerve to kick him.

    Unfortunately, the way things are, unless you have a real strong DPS to overcompensate someone pulling 5k, you really can’t afford to carry an underskilled player through the new troll instances.

    I really would like to know how a properly geared (he was) gemmed (all blue quality gems) and enchanted (even had power torrent!) player manages to do ~6k on a boss fight. On the first wipe, I assumed my meter was broken because I couldn’t believe a pure dps class being so low.

    • Ophelie Says:

      If someone’s low performance is causing problems, then, yes, they MUST be removed or (politely at first) asked to leave. It’s the gratuitous abuse that makes me sad.

      I do ~6k on boss fights :(. But then, I don’t expect to pug any heroics until I figure out how to play ret better and get some more 333 gear.

  12. TheGrumpyElf Says:

    8K for a heroic 85, 10K for a Zul. Anything else, that player needs work. It does not mean they are bad players, it just means they should be doing better. Some dummy work, maybe reading about their rotation, just basic stuff. Any class in the game can do 8K on bosses in 329 item level and any class in the game can do 10K in 346 gear on bosses, most 15K+ at that level.

    The person above me had a good question.

    “I really would like to know how a properly geared (he was) gemmed (all blue quality gems) and enchanted (even had power torrent!) player manages to do ~6k on a boss fight.”

    I would like to know too.

    In all quest greens, ungemmed, unenchanted, any class can pull 5K-6K on bosses, so there is no reason for that.

    Anyone doing 6K with good gear, enchants, and gems, is a bad player, there is no other way to explain that. If they took the time to figure out their gear, their gems and their enchants and never took the time to figure out their rotation, they are a bad player. Sorry if that makes me sound “elitist” but facts are facts.

    “But in my experience, the players who are the biggest douchebags in pugs aren’t particularly good players themselves.”

    That sums it up. Usually the first person to start insulting people is the worst one in the group.

    I had someone drop a group a couple of weeks ago complaining how horrible the DPS was and insulting everyone in the group. A quick look at the recount when they left showed that they where dead last in DPS. He was right, the DPS was horrible and he fixed it for us by leaving.

    I tank, heal and DPS, so I have seen it from all ends. Tanks that think they are gods gift but can’t hold aggro from a gnat. Healers who think it is their job to pull. Damage dealers that think 4K DPS is kick ass in a Zul heroic.

    If they all do their job, and do it quietly, I’ll run with them, if they open their mouth to insult others, I drop group. I don’t kick, I drop.

    I can put up with almost anything, I will not put up with anyone insulting another person in the game, even if that player sucks.

    If the player sucks, help them get better if you are going to say something, otherwise keep your stupid comments to yourself.

    Saying, you suck, doesn’t help them, saying, use abilityname in your rotation does. Both took the same effort. One makes for a better player and a decent person and the other one makes someone upset and someone looking like a jerk.

    • Ophelie Says:

      I can only do 5-6k dps and I have a basic idea of how to play ret, and I’m pretty sure my gear average is around 329. 😦

      I think 8k for a non-troll heroic is a bit overkill, with the exception of Erudax. But regardless, I believe more in looking at how the fights actually go than just numbers on Recount. If you have a group that has trouble with target switching, you need more dps than if you have a group that executes the fight perfectly.

      I did a Zul’Aman run with 2 dps, a mage and a shaman, who were around 7k. The other dps was, I believe, around 15k. We didn’t run into any dps-related problems until the last boss. After a couple of wipes, the mage was asked to leave (why him over the shaman, I don’t know- but he had caused a few previous wipes by keeping his element on aggressive so I didn’t defend him).

      But those Daakara wipes, were they due to low dps? Or were they due to the shaman dying immediately after the FIRST transformation because he was getting 1-shotted by the linx? (The average dps of a dead player is, of course, 0) And was my running out of mana due to low dps? Or was it due to the mage standing in the fire for the entirety of the dragonhawk phase?

      I think that if we had a group who executed better. IE the shaman standing further back, the tank taunting faster and people not standing the /$?$%%/” fire, we would have got the fight, two 7k dpsers or not.

  13. Stubborn Says:

    Great post. I laughed when you used the term “naughty words.” It simply struck me as … I don’t know, but I chuckled.

    I’m with you on the reasons to votekick someone. If someone’s sitting way below on dps and we’re not going to be able to finish, I’ll vote them out, but rarely will I initiate a kick (of course my buddy will, so that’s sort of cheating on my part). On the other hand, if someone’s being abusive, I’ll have that VtK button up regardless of class, role, dps, or anything else. Apparently I should be reporting them, too, but that’s another matter.

    While I agree that the Total Fuckwad theory has its flaws, I think the biggest relates to the lack of “perceived power” in the formula. Normal people who begin to believe they have power (for example, from having anonymity and an audience), are going to fall into the “power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely” paradigm. Those of us who realize that there’s no real power there are more immune to it. Perhaps, then, the difference isn’t that the people who turn to jerks aren’t normal, but that they’re simply more susceptible to delusions of grandeur (perceived power) than the rest of us. Age has a lot to do with that, but there are also adults who suffer from it.

    Great post!

    • Ophelie Says:

      The word “naughty” is a wonderful word. I love it!

      I like your take on the Total Fuckwad theory. I still think that if you don’t care about people’s feelings, then you don’t care about people’s feelings, regardless if they know who you are or not. But your take isn’t quite as Lord of Flies as most peoples :).

      I’ve thinking of another take on the theory though: what if it’s not the person’s anonymity, but rather the audience’s anonymity that brings out the Fuckwad? I mean, it’s hard for many to relate to a faceless crowd, or to care that the reaction from a faceless crowd is one of /eyeroll rather than /impressed.

  14. Imakulata Says:

    There was a LFG tool when I started playing in TBC; the players signed up for up to 3 dungeons/raids/quests/zones, which connected them to server-wide LFG channel and enabled them to view which players were signed for which dungeons etc. It was not very popular; I remember that being signed up for 3+ hours and not seeing a single line in the channel was common. Invites were even rarer. I don’t even know how many people were aware this tool even existed, it certainly was not very popular.

    Most players used trade channel to organize groups, which meant you were grounded in a city of your choice for a couple of hours waiting for the group to form, no questing or farming unless the thing you farmed was in a capital city. (Most players stay in a city even now, when they’re not forced to, so I guess it was not something most players minded.) When your group was formed, there was still a big problem to overcome before you started the instance: summoning. Some players would never go summon others no matter what, there was a couple of times when I got stuck at the stone because the rest of the group waited for someone else to go help me. It also meant that I was unable to recruit new players because there was no trade channel near the summoning stone.

    Getting replacements for people who left required one person going back to a city, spamming trade until a replacement was found and recruiting someone and then getting summoned again. By the people who refused to help to summon at the start. Some people simply gave up when anyone quit and left themselves – some people still do but there’s less of them. And there was no top of the queue for groups in progress, they competed for players with all other groups. I remember that in the leveling instances people often didn’t bother to get a replacement as it would take too much time. Unless someone dropped group before the run started.

    Nowadays, having someone drop your group is not much of a punishment as the tool will find a replacement in a couple of minutes. Back then, I thought quitting the group was the ultimate insult. Last week, I had someone throwing insults at me (it’s quite rare but happens sometime) because I wasn’t able to keep him alive and I found myself thinking that if I ignored his insults for a minute or two, he would just quit (they usually do) and a tank whom I could keep alive would join – and looking forward to it.

    Regarding heroic DPS (for 4.0 ones), most of the DPS race bosses require about 7 kDPS on average assuming neither the healer nor the tank are much better and it’s not a fight with a lot of movement. Sometimes a better than average healer or tank can lower the requirement.

    • Ophelie Says:

      Yep on the old LFG system! It was actually somewhat useful for finding people to raid with, but for 5 mans it was waaaay more trouble that it was worth!

      Agreed on the group leaving thing. I do get critical of people who leave after the first wipe – mostly because I think they’re acting like spoiled brats (heaven forbid you’re not being carried by Ensidia!) – but it’s not that big of a deal. It takes 1-2 minutes to replace anyone, even a tank, once you’ve already started an instance.

      • Imakulata Says:

        I wouldn’t really say it was “somewhat useful” unless somewhat means “not at all” too. It was not bad (in my opinion) but barely anyone used it which made the trade channel the only effective way of making groups. (Most people did not want to wait more than 3-4 hours looking for more players so even if you were willing, you would “bleed” players.) I usually played a bit later than prime time (about 21:00-22:00 server time) and it was rare to see more than 10 players in the LFG channel.

        • Ophelie Says:

          I used to pick up players to fill in holes – or find pug raids myself – fairly often with the old LFG. Maybe you just had a really crappy server!

  15. Phitom Says:

    Ophelie, you have two problems here.

    First of all, You were not running with me so any other tank is expendable and not as good or sexy etc….

    Secondly, I can be a pretty big asshole even though I am a nice guy overall. During some runs people just irritate the crap out of me. I especially kick them if they are screwing up and cant speak english. I guess this isnt really a problem but I just liked the way that intro started in my head.

    The easiest people to replace are DPS its not so much the numbers that matter its how they act. Like if they die every few seconds due to poison or they don’t move out of stuff repeatedly then yeah they deserve to be kicked.

    • Ophelie Says:

      Well, like I kept saying in the post, if someone doesn’t belong in heroics, then they should be removed. It’s when I see people get really gratuitously abusive, or kick without there being a problem when they’re not performing much better themselves, that I get kind of sad.

      (One of the issues that comes with being a blogger is that if I write about an in-game experience, everyone I’ve ever played with automatically assumes I’m talking about them. Generally my posts are a scrapbook page made of clips from dozens of experiences.)

      I have found myself more critical of tanks lately whenever I wasn’t running with you! (Tanks leave after the raptor boss because they look for something from that raptor boss, not because the raptor boss is hard, though.) I do want to run some more soon! Things are pretty hectic right now so I haven’t been logging on much outside of raids. I’m not getting home until 9-10pm on non-raid nights, so I just eat supper, answer emails and head straight to bed.

  16. alanvinton Says:

    I have had these runs, as i’m sure we all have! But I’ve had a few runs recently where no-one says ANYTHING during the whole run, and at the end just says “ty, gg” or something to that effect.

    • Ophelie Says:

      I kind of prefer those runs. Especially if they say “ty” at the end. My mind is blown every time someone says thanks at the end.

  17. Phitom Says:

    Once you run with Phitom you are never the same 😀

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